Talk:List of fights
Discussion on the page Needs a lot of work that I can't do by myself and an important addition to the wikia Sables 17:50, April 26, 2010 (UTC) :Before your start, we should really discuss if this is needed. The page Events which was similar has been deleted because it was obsolete and full of red link. This has high potential to finish in the same way : a lot of one line stub articles. :Also there is already a battle category which has similar purpose (for such purpose categories are better than list articles), and the detail of the fights can be found in the character pages. :Kdom 18:24, April 26, 2010 (UTC) I don't think this is really needed. It has potential to clear up some things if combined with a filter so people know what is filler and what was canon. After all not all fights went the same in the anime, however this can also repeat a lot of things like mentioned by Kdom. I think the fights are covered enough between Character pages, episodes, chapters, bottom of character pages (already split into filler and canon), Anime and Manga Differences, Fighting Styles (which notably tell you PLENTY of story information as well as function) and all. I am pretty interested in how it could be done. The Oars vs Straw Hats would probably be ungodly long (to the point where reading the Arc page will be better). I guess in additional I can say... This Wikia out of the few (probably just over ten) anime wikia I have been to is special. It seems to be focused on the manga, with trivia in the right place and smart informed users everywhere. Few adverts (none in the main body text) and such. It also seems to be streamlined, it doesn't repeat itself by giving related techniques a separate page for example. We only started slipping now as the Straw Hats have a long backstory and it gets copied and spaced to all members. We shouldn't really have anything that can't work on it's own and as a part of everything. Just means more pages to update. --One Piece Of Romance Dawn 19:38, April 26, 2010 (UTC) Pretty much everything I have to say about the page has been said before I got out of bed for the day... One-Winged Hawk 08:39, April 27, 2010 (UTC) Gonna have to agree with several points made against this page. The page is gonna be a list but unfortunately it may not become much more than that. It could be decorated but not that much more in terms of usefulness that could be found in other pages.Mugiwara Franky 09:58, April 27, 2010 (UTC) Why not to keep this page just as a list of all fights? Ruxax 10:57, April 27, 2010 (UTC) :Its bad enough we have a few other lists, but lists aren't encyclopedic and are too trivia. This page serves little purpose in giving ut serious facts, it just lists fights. It doesn't even give the chapter or details on HOW the fight went... Just a list. It can't be linked to only linked FROM, thus is a "dead end" link. One-Winged Hawk 16:34, April 27, 2010 (UTC) One of the focal points of One Piece are the battles/fights that take place between characters. Why then does this wiki have a Luffy vs. Laboon fight page, yet the idea of creating pages for the other and more important battles are forgotten? Particular fights are not well enough summarised in other other larger articles especially such examples as 'Luffy first used gomu gomu bazooka against Buggy' to be used as a defining source for battle information. I argue that everyone who visits this wiki would want to see pages discussing fights and this list is the seed to sow the writing of others. Information would not be reiterated but clarified in article form. Sables 14:12, April 27, 2010 (UTC) :We do have some techniques on devil fruits and other pages, listing also when and how they were used. They give out far more information then this is. And with chapter pages around, there isn't a need at all for this page. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 16:35, April 27, 2010 (UTC) the luffy vs laboon page was part of the Events page which has been deleted. Now it is only link to one of Angel test page. Hence it shall be deleted either or redirect to the chapter it occured. Also what are we going to do with Marineford fights ? Most of them are just cameo fights that lasted 2 pages. Kdom 16:47, April 27, 2010 (UTC) The idea of creating fight pages would clarify in depth the certain techniques, attacks and items etc that were used by characters. This gives the reader a faster chronological index as to characters physical, intellectual & emotional fighting development. The fights should be broken down into sub-sections for organisation 1. Normal Fights - these being fights that have enough length or story to write a decent article. 2. Short Fights - these being fights that last very briefly (Marineford) which should contain facts rather than writing and will be compiled into a larger article with other short fights. Sables 17:44, April 27, 2010 (UTC) If the initiator is ready to write not stub articles for at least about half the battles, I think we should allow this project. Ruxax 19:05, April 27, 2010 (UTC) :You see, to me, Luffy vs Coby didn't deserve an article. It's not even a fight it is just a dispute. A table like the List of Canon Characters may have some added value wrt to a simple list. It could contain some simple information like the winner and the first time a attack is used. But I'm against separate articles for fights. Kdom 20:16, April 27, 2010 (UTC) ::Agreed, not a single fight deserves a page of its own, when chapters and character pages.. Arc pages and saga pages... All cater for this. If we have pages referencing fights, we should just loose them, we don't link TO them hardly and their value is pointless. How many times must we repeat the same facts over and over again? No one is likely to look up individaul fights, but they will characters and chapters. One-Winged Hawk 21:52, April 27, 2010 (UTC) I'm just gonna agree further with what's been against the pages. All I can I add I guess is that repetition of stuff found in other pages greatly depends on the pages being presented. Saga, Arc, and Chapter pages maybe repetition but they are pages that people would most likely look at. The list of fights and the individual fight pages on the other hand are a different story. They're not exactly pages people would first look at in order to learn about a certain fight. The first pages they would be looking at would be character or chapter pages. There's also indeed the very small skirmishes between characters to point out. This so called fights aren't exactly major battles per say and really shouldn't be noted down. Hitting a person with one or few blows can't always be instantly called a major battle. If it was like that, then all the small fights like comedic ones between Sanji and Zoro would be noted down since they too fall under the circumstances.Mugiwara Franky 03:00, April 28, 2010 (UTC) It would be simple to decide which fights should be classified as such eg. Luffy vs. Coby by deciding on a system as to what is considered legitimate. Fight pages would not be valueless as they chart the chronological growth of characters. The articles would not be repetitions of chapter etc. pages as they would describe in detail the interaction between characters, past experiences they may share and other such matters which provide more information and a deeper insight to the reader. Rather than thinking that these articles would be re-hashed writing, they would be sources for an in depth summary further reaching than chapter, arc etc. pages that deal with the historical and cultural impacts of the event. These pages would not be dead links and unpopular with readers as they would be linked from character, technique/devil fruit, chapter, arc etc. pages where there is a relevance and/or writing on the event. Fights in one piece are often major turning points and exemplify the storyline, character development and major themes as with most shonen manga and as such they deserve solitary articles. Sables 13:44, April 28, 2010 (UTC) Can we decide the fate of this page already, editors continue to waste time editing it while it lives on an uncertain future.One-Winged Hawk 22:07, April 28, 2010 (UTC) I think this page should be kept because it allows editors to compare the " major battles " of a character and the times he appears in the " list of all fights ". Thanks to it, I was able to add fightS that were not written in the " major battles " of several characters. Besides, this list of all fights makes us able to know the order of all the fights in the storyline of One Piece, what is not available elsewhere. The deletion of this page would only mean the loss of pieces of information for the One Piece Wikia. PS : of course, this list must only concern canon fights. April 29, 2010 :Comparison isn't what the wikia is about though. Thats the problem though, the list of fights is "touchy" since a line has to be drawn and one isn't here. Every minor and major squabble is being noted. Also, the missing fights are noted in detail elsewhere - you just have to look for them, while this serves little more then being just a fanfad. A page has to have more value then this, take Animals and Dials as good examples of lists that were "unavoidable" because they couldn't create strong pages on their own. Note how both are more then just a list as well, their a source of information. One-Winged Hawk 09:56, April 29, 2010 (UTC) ::Also, your ploughing through adding fights as a list, but not giving out references, which "make" a page. Please at least correct this much on the list, for this is possibly the most important thing an article needs. One-Winged Hawk 09:58, April 29, 2010 (UTC) Now one piece wikia has section "Major Battles" in characters' pages, which has list of the character's fights. However, as of now, this section is useless, because looking at it a reader can't even know when the battle happened, what happened, who was the winner; helps in no way to the reader. I would be much better, if clicking on a battle name, he would obtain such information. This can be achieved either by creating articles for fights or placing this information right in the character's page. (The latter however would lead to duplicating the information on every fight participant page). So, if we don't want to cover such aspect as fights, we should delete these sections as well; otherwise we should give a chance to this project. Ruxax 10:20, April 29, 2010 (UTC) P.S. The battle information, of course, must contain reference to chapters and episodes, during which they occured. Ruxax 10:23, April 29, 2010 (UTC) :Its been pointed out before we could actually do away with them since their not encyclopedic and the fights are already detailed on the page. We just didn't remove them because we got used to them being there. One-Winged Hawk 12:39, April 29, 2010 (UTC) Actually, this is the only page decicated to battles which explains in what arc and in what order the fights took place. The " Major Battles " in characters'pages do not provide such pieces of information (which is normal as it only concerns the battles of the character). If we want to find all the battles that took place in One Piece, we have to look into each thread dedicated to each arc - which means going to different pages. And that becomes problematic because it is not easy to get these pieces of informations as they are hidden among a lot of other linked to the arc. You just have to check Thriller Bark Arc to see how it is difficult and irritating to get the list of fights of this arc. There is also the fact that some fights are not written in the different threads dedicated to the arcs because it took place elsewhere at the same time. That's why even in this state this thread is definitely useful. Now, what is interesting is to find how improve this thread in order to give more pieces of information about all the different fights. I'm not used to a Wikia so I don't know how to run a page, but maybe some experimented people could provide ideas and solutions. 12:03 April 29, 2010. :Whats the point then? Even if you mention the lists its been pointed out before we don't even need the major battles ones in the first place. The lists aren't encyclopedic, their trivia and trivia isn't really encyclopedic at all. Its only recently I've cracked down on trivia as it stands because it got out of hand. So I remove trivia one direction and someone adds it in another? Either way, the page is WEAK and needs far more improvement, or at least attempt to turn it into a better article. Which I don't see happening right now, I just see the same problems continue with more of the list added to. And if the page is difficult to reference, or simply can't hold references then we've got to question the need. One-Winged Hawk 12:39, April 29, 2010 (UTC) ::Why do you think that lists are not encyclopedic and they are trivia? List are encyclopedic and are not trivia. There are plenty of pure list pages in wikipedia, and one cannot say they are useless. While they do not the "regular" pages provide much information, they serve as a kind of index or toc. (If they contain links to other pages, of course). So the problem is if the commumity wants individual fight pages or not, not in the list itself. Ruxax 13:37, April 29, 2010 (UTC) I've seen that Ruxax created some pages for some fights listed in this thread, in order to give more pieces of information about them. I think that is a good option for the future of this page : it will list and order all the fights of the manga and thus provide the links to the pages dedicated to the fights. 13:02, April 29, 2010. :Again, those fights aren't needed. Chapters... Character histories... Arcs... All those pages hold information. Back in the older days of the wikia we ditched such pages for the same reason I'm not happy to see them return. We went through all this before and to me its a problem. There were 3 crocodile fights, each their own seperate incidents, so they wouldn't go on a single page. Now, how do you list such fights? The fights are also going back to the age old problem of "dead end articles". Which remains at the moment aside from references the biggest concern here. There is little point in linking to a characters history page, or chapter page to these pages since they already cover the things on these pages already. Thus, it kind of defeats the point. One-Winged Hawk 12:39, April 29, 2010 (UTC) ::1) Not me created these fight pages, I just renamed them properly. ::2) The fight pages won't be dead links, if they will be linked from "Major Battles" sections on character pages. However, if you want to delete these sections - that is another story. Ruxax 13:37, April 29, 2010 (UTC) ::*You know, One-Winged Hawk, the characters pages aren't needed either since the arcs pages contain all the information of the One Piece manga. If you think about it, theses pages were created to simplify the access to a limited amount of information, which was more specific. The aim of the " List of fights " is also to simplify the access to some other pieces of information which are specific. To me, it is definitely an encyclopedic step which makes sense in the Wikia. 15:09, April 29, 2010. :::On the contray, characters are needed because there are things the chapters can't carry, SBS questions, interviews (which we can't create pages for often) and so forth. List of fights however adds nothing new or unique to itself as other pages already hold all the information. One-Winged Hawk 21:56, April 29, 2010 (UTC) ::: Actually the SBS have got their own page for each volume. LordRayleigh '10:48, April 30, 2010. OK so it seems this page is important for some editors/readers. But before continuing, one shall decide some rules before everything goes out of hands and I think that's part of Angel concern. Especially if one create some dedicated articles to fight. Make a list is just the easy part. In particular : *what do we call a fight ? Are Luffy vs Coby or Zoro vs Charloss fights ? That is questionnable. *where does a fight start and where does a fight end. If you take the Marineford arc there are plenty of mini fights which doesn't last. There is no point in spliting them like it is done in the article at the moment. Are you going to make a page for every cameo ? It is the same for thriller bark. How do you limit the final fight. It's start with the strawhat but luffy vs oars, then brook appears, then Moria, then Luffy. How are you going to manage that ! *how are you going to name the pages. There are 3 Luffy vs Crocodile, will they be on the same page ? On 3 different ones ? Are you going to make a Luffy vs Coby for the one in Water 7 and in Marineford ? *What are the fight that deserve a page and those which doesn't ? *Sables said that the fight pages allow to see the evolutions of the characters, how are you going to show that ? *are you going to make a fight template ? *... So rather than continuing to rush into the different pages. I would like to see a start of organization here because there are a lot of questions that need answers. And the first thing to do is write the guidelines that you are going to follow Kdom 21:22, April 29, 2010 (UTC) PS : And about the image, remember that we use the anime rather than the manga. And avoid duplicate file. There is the Category:Action images that should fulfill plenty of the need. :I think naming is the hardest, as I mentioned on a topic in the forum, names are meaningless to 'fights'. If Luffy fights a person more then once how do you list these fights uniquely. Also, is it Doflamingo Vs. Moria or Moria Vs Doflamingo. The names are open to vagueness. Overall, I've never been satisfied with any fighting pages, because there is so much room for gaps and holes and not enough cement to put in them. But I do agree, there should at least be organisation, this page was started in good faith, but continues to be little use to the wikia because editors are only adding to the occuring problems instead of fixing them. One-Winged Hawk 21:56, April 29, 2010 (UTC) :For fight pages in general, they sure do present some problems as listed down by Kdom. Abit too much problems as pointed out. One of the biggest problems presented here is indeed how do we show the evolution of characters in the pages. I can see plot summaries, and chapter and anime references, but not exactly anything else that can achieve the goal of showing the evolution. How exactly do we do that? Do we write stuff like, "In this fight, Jinbei apparently was more determined as he needed to rescue Luffy from Akainu", or something like that? :For the list page itself, seeing how it seems to provide some help to some people that can't be achieved in other pages, it somewhat has some warrant. What should be listed down however, should be more carefully done. The various small fights in the Whitebeard War as mentioned are prime examples. Alot of them were just one or two hits and very incomplete. If the war was a fighting game, it was kinda like after one player lays one or two hits at start, the new challenger message came up. After just one or two hits with the new challenger, another new challenger screen message comes up and so on. Not sure what others might think of it, but by a gamer's logic, a string of sequences of like this shows not one real fight regardless of how certain ones turn out. Better to group them all together as ''Whitebeard Pirates and their allies vs. Marines and Shichibukai as the war was more of a battle as a whole than in it's individual parts.Mugiwara Franky 12:08, April 30, 2010 (UTC) That was why I created Battle of Marineford because we can cover up all of that event in one page instead of needlessly creating VS. Pages. Joekido 12:24, April 30, 2010 (UTC) Stop editing guys! Seriously, can we all just stop editing these pages. #We have a NUMBER of issues resolving these pages and NO ONE is resolving ALL of the issues. Their tackling just part of the larger problem. #I'm trying to get a guideline set up related to the problems in the forums because this whole thing proves we have a hole in our system of working. Now, you guys obivously want these pages, but if the problems don't get resolved, and I'm putting a deadline of Monday, then they are going to have to go. Name #None of the fights have names (biggest issue) We've got to invent names and so far the only page with an invented name is Bilkan and if WE have to invent the name, is it really suitable? Bilkan only exists because there is no way I could write about them unless I gave them a suitable name. #Moria Vs Doflamingo or Doflamingo Vs Moria? #Overall lists aren't encyclopedic, either make it like Animals and Dials or its not a suitable page. Except... You creating external pages. #Find a way to stop these being dead ends. (Oh wait, just about every page that COULD link to them already covers these fights so you can't link to them). Look, as a long termn veteran editor, and I'm not going to put out "stick to the rules or I'm leaving" since thats childish and I'm above it. But I don't want to see these pages stay and because of what they are. And to be quite honest, if these pages were lost, we'd loose nothing at all since we shouldn't have had seen them created in the first place. We didn't need them, their fanfluff... And though we're a "fansite" this isn't a fanhole where just about every sneeze and cough can have its own page. One-Winged Hawk 06:56, April 30, 2010 (UTC) Pity because as a long-term veteran editor like you here, I was only trying to resolve the issue. There was a reason why I created the Event page so we won't pollute the site with VS battle pages but the Event page was completly ignored and when I was going to go ahead and except it being deleted, people started creating VS battle page. That cause me to restart the Event page to show that there was a reason Joekido 10:56, April 30, 2010 (UTC) :No, they created this independantly of that page, even if we HAD that page they'd have created it. Stop thinking this is all because "Events" isn't there. One-Winged Hawk 12:57, April 30, 2010 (UTC) '''Forum:Regarding Fight Pages Category:Deleted Article Talk Pages